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Regarding “Attacking the Beauty Myth”…

Katie is reading a book about the beauty myth, essentially a conspiracy created by men to keep women down and under control. Ugh. I think both Katie and I agree that this is pretty stupid. Where we disagree is when it comes to how the perception of beauty is exacerbated in society. I tend to believe that it’s all about the competitiveness women have with each other to look better than the next, while Katie tends to believe that the root of all evil is men.

So, I”ll post excerpts from our debate here, but you can refer to the main entry to see the full entry with commentary, which I’d recommend anyway. Comments other than my own will be italicized.

If your talking about commercial makeup, it was developed for movie-making. Camera’s were pretty rough in the early days and they basically needed a way of making the actors show up on the low quality film so they’d exaggerate their features. In fact, Max Factor was one of the earliest makeup artists that worked for the film industry. As film quality got better, so did the makeup that was used and as more and more people watched films they’d want to use the same kind of makeup that they saw on screen—thus the Max Factor line of commercial cosmetics. Personally, I think it started as a Hollywood thing and just evolved into a cosmetic industry thing, like what you were saying. It’s nothing more than a money maker, playing off women’s insecurities about their looks.

Of course, face paintings have been around since the Stone age. Tribal paintings, Egyptians and their face paintings, etc. In fact, at the time it was usually the MEN wearing the makeup and the women were relegated to the background.

But makeup aside, I think the whole beauty thing really just plays off the competitive nature women have with each other, along with their insecurities. Sure, women want to attract the attention of men, but moreso, I think it’s just wanting to look better than the women next to them. As technology gets better and surgery gets cheaper, if you can make your boobs bigger, your lips poutier, your nose smaller or your waist thinner and you can afford it why not. Again, it’s not men trying to keep women down, it’s an industry just playing off insecurities to make some big money.

Women are always competing with other women. Strange. A woman walks in a room and what’s the first thing the other women do—they check her out from top to bottom usually picking her apart mentally.

It’s not really all about men, because men are pretty basic and getting our attention isn’t THAT hard. Beauty helps, but if all it took was beauty then there’d be A LOT of women who’d never get our attention. In fact, some of the more beautiful women I’ve known or seen are the one’s that have their hair in a ponytail, wearing sweats and basic makeup. The outside helps get some attention but the inside is what keeps us coming back for more.

Which brings me to my next point, I think if you asked a room full of men and a room full of women what beauty means to them, you’d get two very different answers. I think that by saying it’s all about competing for men, at a basic level, you’re giving men way too much credit. I think you eluded to it with your office story, it’s about acceptance from other women. Women are each other’s worst enemy and best friend all at the same time. They have intimately closer relationships with each other and at the same time can tear each other down with just a few words. Ugh.

Also, I wasn’t talking about commercial makeup. Women have been using makeup since LONG before the movie industry came around. Although the movie industry didn’t help, because now with movies and TV and magazines, women have a totally skewed image of what they think they should look like.

Yeah, I know they’ve been wearing makeup before the movie industry came around. In fact, I mentioned above that some of the earliest known records of makeup come from the Egyptians around 3000BC. The Romans also used a lot of makeup during the 1st century AD. Some used it for hydrating the skin, some used it for religious purposes. Later on it was used much like it’s used today, to hide blemishes or to make eyes sparkle, but was used by both men and women. That alone, leads me to believe that the use of makeup wasn’t to attract the opposite sex but merely as a highlight certain features or to make themselves look like everyone else.

According to an article I read, the real makeup revolution came during the early 1900’s when Maybelline and Max Factor began creating their own products. And during the 1920’s mass makeup marketing came into play when they began portraying makeup’d women as independent and free-thinkers. And as I eluded to earlier, the use of makeup in movies and print on models and actresses really helped the marketing machine influence more women that makeup was a must to keep that youthful appearance.

Basically, I think women’s concern about their beauty stems from insecurities and wanting to fight aging. They want to look as good, if not better than the women next to them and they want to keep themselves looking youthful. I really think it has less to do with attracting men as it does with simply trying to make themselves feel better about themselves.

But in our culture, youth is valued. By men. I’m just looking at this from an evolutionary, sociobiological perspective. Everything boils down to sex and reproduction, because we’re animals like every other animal on the planet. There may be cultural things heaped on top of it, but that’s what it boils down to. If men found fat women attractive, then women would feel better if they were fat. If men liked women with no boobs, then women with big boobs wouldn’t feel good about themselves. Etc.

Youth is valued by men AND women. As I said before, the qualities men find attractive tend to be different than the qualities women THINK men find attractive. Certainly there are historical and biological aspects that come into play concerning beauty, but the topic of this debate is whether men invented beauty to oppress women.

My point is simply that the industry marketing machine pushes the idea of beauty through makeup, body image and even surgery to look like the “ideal” woman. Women help keep this going because of their competitiveness with each other, to look better than the next. Certainly men come into play simply because we are members of society and are obviously going to have some influence.

Some men DO find larger women more attractive and some men DO like women with smaller boobs, so that argument doesn’t really hold water. Women who go into plastic surgeons offices tend to want to try and make their bodies closer to their idea of “perfection”. They want the perfect boob, they want the perfect waist size, they want Angelina Jolie’s lips or Halle Berry’s breasts. It’s not so much about attracting men as it is about reaching that idea of the perfect image that magazines and movies are selling to us. Most people are insecure animals, so it doesn’t take much to make us want to change our body types/image to something more socially “normal”.

MOST men don’t go for fatties and if they do, it’s because they have lower self-esteem and they can keep them at home while they go out and stick other, thinner, prettier women on the side. I’m just basing that on the few guys I know who date bigger women.

Jesus, I think that might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. You must know a lot of losers, if that’s the way they think. I highly doubt most men fall into that thoughtstream. And that thinner, prettier woman probably has low self-esteem or other issues to have to be the “other woman” in a relationship.

By men. I’m just looking at this from an evolutionary, sociobiological perspective. Everything boils down to sex and reproduction, because we’re animals like every other animal on the planet. There may be cultural things heaped on top of it, but that’s what it boils down to. If men found fat women attractive, then women would feel better if they were fat. If men liked women with no boobs, then women with big boobs wouldn’t feel good about themselves. Etc.

I think by looking at something only from an evolutionary, sociobiological perspective you’re pretty much narrowing your vision too much. If you take in the bigger picture, you’d first realize that not everything boils down to “sex and reproduction”. There are quite a few people who don’t want to reproduce and then others who aren’t interested in a sexual relationship, as much as they just want a companion.

Also those “cultural things” are pretty important, because it seems that you’re throwing all men into one big bucket without considering those “cultural things”. Culture strongly influences the ideal of beauty. Some cultures feel that heavier women are their ideal of sexy, for example some of the Tongan people I know like women with some meat on their bones. Other cultures prefer their women submission and covered from head to toe. You can barely see what they look like, so the beauty comes from how they carry themselves and what’s not seen. And still other cultures feel that the purpose of a woman is to reproduce and care for the family and so the emphasis isn’t so much on the outer beauty but their ability to carry children and raise them—I guess a hearty type of women.

But the book is about the “images of beauty”, and so I stand by the point that women keep themselves down. They are reaching for an unobtainable goal, competing with each other to reach that ideal first, meanwhile tearing each other down every chance they get.

Also, the idea that many men want their women to look like models or actresses is ludicrous. I know very few men that open a magazine or watch a movie and think, I want my wife to look like THAT. In fact, a lot of men are pretty happy with the person they’re with. Doesn’t mean we don’t look at that person and think, “wow she’s gorgeous”, but so does everyone, men and women alike.

It’s an industry that’s obviously working. Women buy into it, hook, line and sinker, partly to attract men, but mostly so that they can look more like their ideal of the perfect woman.

I actually saw a show dedicated to this topic. This woman wanted to look like her ideal of perfection. She didn’t mention a man once as her reason, but more because of her own self-esteem issues caused by environmental issues. She was beautiful to begin with, but with that beauty came other issues. She didn’t have problems attracting men, but instead had problems being socially accepted with women. Honestly, what woman wants to hang around with a beautiful woman. I think all women want to be the one that gets the most attention with even their friends and have a hard time if they don’t. Again, this supports my argument about women being competitive and driving up this ideal of beauty amongst each other.

Once again, who are they looking to get attention from? MEN! Not women, because women pretty much automatically hate the prettiest girl in the room. Even if they are “friends”, there’s still going to be resentment there.

And once again, like I said, men play a role, but at the end of the day it’s not about a woman wanting to get a man, but more about wanting to know they CAN get a man. It’s the competition with their friends that drives them, not the reward. Any woman can get a man with very little effort, but being able to turn the heads in a room full of men AND women takes more effort. To achieve that is a bigger reward than any man. And of course there’s going to be resentment from the friends that didn’t achieve that.

Like I said earlier, women will pick each other apart, but are also willing to compliment someone that’s obviously beautiful… unless of course, you’re just a bitch with self-esteem issues of your own. But I’ve found that most women I know can just as easily say that a woman looks great, as she can tear her down. Men don’t tend to do either. We don’t tear each other down, but also don’t compliment another guys figure.

Anyhow, I don’t need comments here, you can comment at Katie’s site. This is mostly for historical purposes.

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